#101

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:01
von Leto_II. | 20.630 Beiträge | 29433 Punkte
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#102

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:03
von ente (gelöscht)
avatar

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #91

Immerhin: Auf dem Schornstein der Sixtinischen Kapelle hatte sich für längere Zeit eine Taube niedergelassen. Wenn das kein positives Zeichen ist. :-)


Es war eine Möwe ... die kennt sich mit Fischfang aus.

Jetzt noch Franciscus ... brave Möwe, und nicht nur Eine :-)

Sollte das Augenmerk der Kirche jetzt auch mal auf die Armen fallen, so würde ich das sofort unterstützen.


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#103

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:06
von Hans Bergman | 15.584 Beiträge | 28938 Punkte

Zitat von Lea S. im Beitrag #100
Argentinien bekam den Zuschlag!

Wie? Die nächste WM in Argentinien?


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#104

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:07
von Hans Bergman | 15.584 Beiträge | 28938 Punkte

Zitat von ente im Beitrag #102
...Sollte das Augenmerk der Kirche jetzt auch mal auf die Armen fallen, so würde ich das sofort unterstützen.


Das Augenmerk der Kirche fiel schon immer auf die Armen: als willkommene Spender.


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#105

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:12
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

Bergoglio, 76, reportedly got the second-most votes after Joseph Ratzinger in the 2005 papal election, and he has long specialized in the kind of pastoral work that some say is an essential skill for the next pope. In a lifetime of teaching and leading priests in Latin America, which has the largest share of the world’s Catholics, Bergoglio has shown a keen political sensibility as well as the kind of self-effacing humility that fellow cardinals value highly, says his official biographer, Sergio Rubin.

Bergoglio would likely encourage the church’s 400,000 priests to hit the streets to capture more souls, Rubin said in an Associated Press interview. He is also most comfortable taking a low profile, and his personal style is the antithesis of Vatican splendor. “It’s a very curious thing: When bishops meet, he always wants to sit in the back rows. This sense of humility is very well seen in Rome,” Rubin said.

Bergoglio is known for modernizing an Argentine church that had been among the most conservative in Latin America,...

...Bergoglio has slowed a bit with age and is feeling the effects of having a lung removed due to infection when he was a teenager — two strikes against him at a time when many Vatican-watchers say the next pope should be relatively young and strong. “But he’s going to be very influential in the congress of cardinals, one of those who is most listened to,” Rubin said.

Bergoglio couldn’t prevent Argentina from becoming the first Latin American country to legalize gay marriage, or stop its president, Cristina Fernandez, from promoting free contraception and artificial insemination. When Bergoglio argued that gay adoptions discriminate against children, Fernandez compared his tone to “medieval times and the Inquisition.”

This kind of demonization is unfair, says Rubin, who wrote Bergoglio’s authorized biography, “The Jesuit.”

“Is Bergoglio a progressive — a liberation theologist even? No. He’s no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes,” Rubin said.

Critics also accuse him of failing to stand up publicly against the country’s military dictatorship from 1976-1983, when victims and their relatives often brought first-hand accounts of torture, death and kidnappings to the priests he supervised as leader of the Jesuit Order in Argentina

Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

“In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!”

Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.
“Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.


Vorstehendes habe ich ueber ihn gefunden. Die letzten Absaetze ueber ihn gefallen mir. Das koennte interessant werden. Mal sehen wie er sich anlaesst.


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#106

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:12
von Maga-neu | 21.156 Beiträge | 46065 Punkte

Zitat von Landegaard im Beitrag #99
Zitat von Leto_II. im Beitrag #97
Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #96
Ich vermute, es ist Scola.


Fein!:
"Kardinal Scola gehört zu den Geistlichen, die sich vor allem um ein angebliches Opfer des Missbrauchsskandals sorgen: die Kirche selbst. Scola sprach von "lügnerischen Anschuldigungen" und fürchtete, die Kirche könne als solche diskreditiert werden. Die Kirche sah er einer "inquisitorischen Erniedrigung" ausgesetzt."

Einer meiner Freunde aus dem Gruselkabinett.


Nix Scola
Vielleicht hat doch der Heilige Geist gewirkt. ;-)

Franziskus - eine gute Namenswahl.


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#107

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:18
von Maga-neu | 21.156 Beiträge | 46065 Punkte

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #105
Bergoglio, 76, reportedly got the second-most votes after Joseph Ratzinger in the 2005 papal election, and he has long specialized in the kind of pastoral work that some say is an essential skill for the next pope. In a lifetime of teaching and leading priests in Latin America, which has the largest share of the world’s Catholics, Bergoglio has shown a keen political sensibility as well as the kind of self-effacing humility that fellow cardinals value highly, says his official biographer, Sergio Rubin.

Bergoglio would likely encourage the church’s 400,000 priests to hit the streets to capture more souls, Rubin said in an Associated Press interview. He is also most comfortable taking a low profile, and his personal style is the antithesis of Vatican splendor. “It’s a very curious thing: When bishops meet, he always wants to sit in the back rows. This sense of humility is very well seen in Rome,” Rubin said.

Bergoglio is known for modernizing an Argentine church that had been among the most conservative in Latin America,...

...Bergoglio has slowed a bit with age and is feeling the effects of having a lung removed due to infection when he was a teenager — two strikes against him at a time when many Vatican-watchers say the next pope should be relatively young and strong. “But he’s going to be very influential in the congress of cardinals, one of those who is most listened to,” Rubin said.

Bergoglio couldn’t prevent Argentina from becoming the first Latin American country to legalize gay marriage, or stop its president, Cristina Fernandez, from promoting free contraception and artificial insemination. When Bergoglio argued that gay adoptions discriminate against children, Fernandez compared his tone to “medieval times and the Inquisition.”

This kind of demonization is unfair, says Rubin, who wrote Bergoglio’s authorized biography, “The Jesuit.”

“Is Bergoglio a progressive — a liberation theologist even? No. He’s no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes,” Rubin said.

Critics also accuse him of failing to stand up publicly against the country’s military dictatorship from 1976-1983, when victims and their relatives often brought first-hand accounts of torture, death and kidnappings to the priests he supervised as leader of the Jesuit Order in Argentina

Like other Jesuit intellectuals, Bergoglio has focused on social outreach. Catholics are still buzzing over his speech last year accusing fellow church officials of hypocrisy for forgetting that Jesus Christ bathed lepers and ate with prostitutes.

“In our ecclesiastical region there are priests who don’t baptize the children of single mothers because they weren’t conceived in the sanctity of marriage,” Bergoglio told his priests. “These are today’s hypocrites. Those who clericalize the Church. Those who separate the people of God from salvation. And this poor girl who, rather than returning the child to sender, had the courage to carry it into the world, must wander from parish to parish so that it’s baptized!”

Bergoglio compared this concept of Catholicism to the Pharisees of Christ’s time: people who congratulate themselves while condemning others.
“Jesus teaches us another way: Go out. Go out and share your testimony, go out and interact with your brothers, go out and share, go out and ask. Become the Word in body as well as spirit,” Bergoglio said.


Vorstehendes habe ich ueber ihn gefunden. Die letzten Absaetze ueber ihn gefallen mir. Das koennte interessant werden. Mal sehen wie er sich anlaesst.
“Is Bergoglio a progressive — a liberation theologist even? No. He’s no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes,” Rubin said.

That's exactly my position. I disliked the Liberation Theology for its links with Marxism ('tschuldige, Nante), but I'm strongly advocating a church that is working for the poor. (And then Bergoglio's ancestors come from Piemonte. ;-))


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#108

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:19
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

"...In 2001, upon becoming cardinal, Bergoglio “discouraged people from spending the money to fly to Rome to celebrate with him and advised that they instead donate the funds to help alleviate poverty at home.”
He lived in a simple apartment, cooked his own food, and traveled by bus instead of a chauffeured limousine...."


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#109

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:25
von ente (gelöscht)
avatar

Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #104
Zitat von ente im Beitrag #102
...Sollte das Augenmerk der Kirche jetzt auch mal auf die Armen fallen, so würde ich das sofort unterstützen.


Das Augenmerk der Kirche fiel schon immer auf die Armen: als willkommene Spender.

Jetzt mistintrepetierst Du mich aber :-(


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#110

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:35
von Lea S. | 14.199 Beiträge | 13418 Punkte

Zitat von ente im Beitrag #109
Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #104
Zitat von ente im Beitrag #102
...Sollte das Augenmerk der Kirche jetzt auch mal auf die Armen fallen, so würde ich das sofort unterstützen.


Das Augenmerk der Kirche fiel schon immer auf die Armen: als willkommene Spender.

Jetzt mistintrepetierst Du mich aber :-(



Es wird bereits weitaus schlimmer Mist interpretiert im Netz.
"................Es ist auch in Argentinien allgemein bekannt, dass Bergoglio als Kardinal etliche eigene kirchliche Mitarbeiter beim Junta-Geheimdienst als "Subversive" angeschwärzt hatte, die man daraufhin "verschwinden" ließ. Zwei überlebende jesuitische Folteropfer haben das so bezeugt!
Auch Bergoglios enge Beziehung zum Junta-Verbrecher Massera ist seit Langem bekannt und durch Zeugenaussagen gerichtlich belegt.............."

Da hoffe ich doch für die Zukunft auf eine rege, freie Diskussion über politische Verwicklungen in der argentinischen Priesterschaft.

Hat ja nicht lange gedauert.



zuletzt bearbeitet 13.03.2013 21:36 | nach oben springen

#111

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:38
von ente (gelöscht)
avatar

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #108
"...In 2001, upon becoming cardinal, Bergoglio “discouraged people from spending the money to fly to Rome to celebrate with him and advised that they instead donate the funds to help alleviate poverty at home.”
He lived in a simple apartment, cooked his own food, and traveled by bus instead of a chauffeured limousine...."


Willie hats auch die Sprache verschlagen, der redet nur noch insulanisch :-)

...Er kochte seine Füsse und fuhr Bus anstatt Taxi ... oder wie?

Ich bin in insulanisch eher unbegabt, bei einer .de Domain muss ich das wohl auch nicht sein...

Franziskus finde ich als Name einfach geil.


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#112

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:40
von ente (gelöscht)
avatar

Zitat von Lea S. im Beitrag #110
Zitat von ente im Beitrag #109
Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #104
Zitat von ente im Beitrag #102
...Sollte das Augenmerk der Kirche jetzt auch mal auf die Armen fallen, so würde ich das sofort unterstützen.


Das Augenmerk der Kirche fiel schon immer auf die Armen: als willkommene Spender.

Jetzt mistintrepetierst Du mich aber :-(



Es wird bereits weitaus schlimmer Mist interpretiert im Netz.
"................Es ist auch in Argentinien allgemein bekannt, dass Bergoglio als Kardinal etliche eigene kirchliche Mitarbeiter beim Junta-Geheimdienst als "Subversive" angeschwärzt hatte, die man daraufhin "verschwinden" ließ. Zwei überlebende jesuitische Folteropfer haben das so bezeugt!
Auch Bergoglios enge Beziehung zum Junta-Verbrecher Massera ist seit Langem bekannt und durch Zeugenaussagen gerichtlich belegt.............."

Da hoffe ich doch für die Zukunft auf eine rege, freie Diskussion über politische Verwicklungen in der argentinischen Priesterschaft.

Hat ja nicht lange gedauert.

Das wird ans Licht kommen, ganz gewiss.


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#113

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 21:47
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

The sins of the Argentine church
The Catholic Church was complicit in dreadful crimes in Argentina. Now it has a chance to repent
Tuesday 4 January 2011 03.20 EST


"....As it happens, in the week before Christmas in the city of Córdoba Videla and some of his military and police cohorts were convicted by their country's courts of the murder of 31 people between April and October 1976, a small fraction of the killings they were responsible for.
The convictions brought life sentences for some of the military. These were not to be served, as has often been the case in Argentina and neighbouring Chile, in comfy armed forces retirement homes but in common prisons. Unsurprisingly there was dancing in the city's streets when the judge announced the sentences.

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes.
The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence).
He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate.

The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment
...."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...ance?CMP=twt_gu


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#114

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:22
von Maga-neu | 21.156 Beiträge | 46065 Punkte

Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #113
The sins of the Argentine church
The Catholic Church was complicit in dreadful crimes in Argentina. Now it has a chance to repent
Tuesday 4 January 2011 03.20 EST


"....As it happens, in the week before Christmas in the city of Córdoba Videla and some of his military and police cohorts were convicted by their country's courts of the murder of 31 people between April and October 1976, a small fraction of the killings they were responsible for.
The convictions brought life sentences for some of the military. These were not to be served, as has often been the case in Argentina and neighbouring Chile, in comfy armed forces retirement homes but in common prisons. Unsurprisingly there was dancing in the city's streets when the judge announced the sentences.

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes.
The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence).
He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate.

The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment
...."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...ance?CMP=twt_gu

War zu erwarten: The Guardian eben, die Hauspostille von Richard Dawkins.

Kennst du die Geschichte des "proper gander"?


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#115

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:36
von Hans Bergman | 15.584 Beiträge | 28938 Punkte

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #114
...War zu erwarten: The Guardian eben, die Hauspostille von Richard Dawkins.

Kennst du die Geschichte des "proper gander"?

Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?


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#116

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:44
von Maga-neu | 21.156 Beiträge | 46065 Punkte

Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #115
Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #114
...War zu erwarten: The Guardian eben, die Hauspostille von Richard Dawkins.

Kennst du die Geschichte des "proper gander"?

Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?
Wenn es um das Thema Religion und "RKK" geht, ist der Guardian so ausgewogen und fair wie Fox News in puncto Obama.



zuletzt bearbeitet 13.03.2013 22:44 | nach oben springen

#117

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:45
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #114
Zitat von Willie im Beitrag #113
The sins of the Argentine church
The Catholic Church was complicit in dreadful crimes in Argentina. Now it has a chance to repent
Tuesday 4 January 2011 03.20 EST


"....As it happens, in the week before Christmas in the city of Córdoba Videla and some of his military and police cohorts were convicted by their country's courts of the murder of 31 people between April and October 1976, a small fraction of the killings they were responsible for.
The convictions brought life sentences for some of the military. These were not to be served, as has often been the case in Argentina and neighbouring Chile, in comfy armed forces retirement homes but in common prisons. Unsurprisingly there was dancing in the city's streets when the judge announced the sentences.

What one did not hear from any senior member of the Argentine hierarchy was any expression of regret for the church's collaboration and in these crimes.
The extent of the church's complicity in the dark deeds was excellently set out by Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence).
He recounts how the Argentine navy with the connivance of Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, now the Jesuit archbishop of Buenos Aires, hid from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission the dictatorship's political prisoners. Bergoglio was hiding them in nothing less than his holiday home in an island called El Silencio in the River Plate.

The most shaming thing for the church is that in such circumstances Bergoglio's name was allowed to go forward in the ballot to chose the successor of John Paul II. What scandal would not have ensued if the first pope ever to be elected from the continent of America had been revealed as an accessory to murder and false imprisonment
...."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/...ance?CMP=twt_gu

War zu erwarten: The Guardian eben, die Hauspostille von Richard Dawkins.

Die Bezugnahme des Artikels ist aber eigentlich auf:
"...Horacio Verbitsky, one of Argentina's most notable journalists, in his book El Silencio (Silence).

Da soll das drinstehen -nicht im Guardian. Der bezieht sich und verweist nur darauf. Ich gehe davon aus, dass die Nachfrage nach dem Buch inzwischen bereits auf eine astronomische Hoehe geschnellt ist.
Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #114

Kennst du die Geschichte des "proper gander"?

Bis eben noch nicht. Aber jetzt.:-)

Ich gehe mal davon aus, dass in den naechsten Tagen, Wochen und vielleicht sogar Monaten, dieses Thema noch von anderen behandelt werden wird. Nachdem das Buch inhaliert wurde und die Journaille Argentinien/Suedamerika nach Zeitzeugen abgegrast hat.
Dann wird man sehen, was dran ist. Und ob es einen fall-out davon gibt.



zuletzt bearbeitet 13.03.2013 22:51 | nach oben springen

#118

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:49
von Nante | 7.776 Beiträge | 10554 Punkte

Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #115
[quote=Maga-neu|p159401]
Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?

Maga ist nicht verantwortlich für jegliche Handlungen seines jetzt obersten Hirten. Ihn jetzt zur Stellungnahme und Buße zu verpflichten finde ich übertrieben.

Wenn jeder die direkte Verantwortlichkeit für die von ihm/ihr vertretene Idee übernehmen sollte......


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#119

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 13.03.2013 22:58
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

Horacio scheint ein "schwerer Mann" zu sein.

"...Horacio Verbitsky (born 1942 in Buenos Aires)[1] is an Argentine investigative journalist and author. In the early 1990s, he reported on a series corruption scandals in the administration of President Carlos Menem, which eventually led to the resignations or firings of many of Menem's ministers. In 1994, he reported on the confessions of naval officer Adolfo Scilingo, documenting torture and executions by the Argentine military during the 1976–83 Dirty War. His books on both the Menem administration and the Scilingo confessions became national bestsellers.....

....Since 1960, Verbitsky has earned national acclaim for his writings and political columns, focusing primarily in the unmasking of political corruption and the promotion of a free press, denouncing any government policies that may affect the counstitutional rights of free speech to journalists and citizens. He has also become known under the nickname "el perro" ("the dog"), for his determination in uncovering stories.[3][4]
During the 1970s he was a member of Montoneros, a guerrilla organization.[5] According to him, he participated in shootings, but during which "luckily" nobody died.[5] He also stated that he had no important functions in the Montoneros organization.[5][6]
Along with Mario Firmenich and five other Montoneros, he was indicted for allegedly being involved in the planning and execution of the bombing of the Superintendence of Security of the Federal Police, on July 2, 1976 — a few months after the military coup — which caused 21 deaths among intelligence officers. The case was however closed in 2007 because of statute of limitations.[7]....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horacio_Verbitsky

Es lohnt sich die Seite in Gaenze zu lesen. Er erinnert ein wenig an an Seymour Hersh von der NYT.

http://www.opendemocracy.net/democracy-p...church_2709.jsp



zuletzt bearbeitet 13.03.2013 23:01 | nach oben springen

#120

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 00:01
von Willie | 19.337 Beiträge | 46908 Punkte

"...Bergoglio's influence seemed to stop at the presidential palace door after Nestor Kirchner and then his wife, Cristina Fernandez, took over the Argentina's government.

His church had no say when the Argentine Supreme Court expanded access to legal abortions in rape cases, and when Bergoglio argued that gay adoptions discriminate against children, Fernandez compared his tone to "medieval times and the Inquisition."

This kind of demonization is unfair, says Rubin, who obtained an extremely rare interview of Bergoglio for his biography, the "The Jesuit."

"Is Bergoglio a progressive – a liberation theologist even? No. He's no third-world priest. Does he criticize the International Monetary Fund, and neoliberalism? Yes. Does he spend a great deal of time in the slums? Yes," Rubin said.

Bergoglio has stood out for his austerity. Even after he became Argentina's top church official in 2001, he never lived in the ornate church mansion where Pope John Paul II stayed when visiting the country, preferring a simple bed in a downtown building, heated by a small stove on frigid weekends. For years, he took public transportation around the city, and cooked his own meals.

Bergoglio almost never granted media interviews, limiting himself to speeches from the pulpit, and was reluctant to contradict his critics, even when he knew their allegations against him were false, said Rubin.

That attitude was burnished as human rights activists tried to force him to answer uncomfortable questions about what church officials knew and did about the dictatorship's abuses after the 1976 coup.

Many Argentines remain angry over the church's acknowledged failure to openly confront a regime that was kidnapping and killing thousands of people as it sought to eliminate "subversive elements" in society. It's one reason why more than two-thirds of Argentines describe themselves as Catholic, but fewer than 10 percent regularly attend mass.

Under Bergoglio's leadership, Argentina's bishops issued a collective apology in October 2012 for the church's failures to protect its flock. But the statement blamed the era's violence in roughly equal measure on both the junta and its enemies.

"Bergoglio has been very critical of human rights violations during the dictatorship, but he has always also criticized the leftist guerrillas; he doesn't forget that side," Rubin said.

The bishops also said "we exhort those who have information about the location of stolen babies, or who know where bodies were secretly buried, that they realize they are morally obligated to inform the pertinent authorities."

That statement came far too late for some activists, who accused Bergoglio of being more concerned about the church's image than about aiding the many human rights investigations of the Kirchners' era.

Bergoglio twice invoked his right under Argentine law to refuse to appear in open court, and when he eventually did testify in 2010, his answers were evasive, human rights attorney Myriam Bregman said.

At least two cases directly involved Bergoglio. One examined the torture of two of his Jesuit priests – Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics – who were kidnapped in 1976 from the slums where they advocated liberation theology. Yorio accused Bergoglio of effectively handing them over to the death squads by declining to tell the regime that he endorsed their work. Jalics refused to discuss it after moving into seclusion in a German monastery.

Both men were freed after Bergoglio took extraordinary, behind-the-scenes action to save them – including persuading dictator Jorge Videla's family priest to call in sick so that he could say Mass in the junta leader's home, where he privately appealed for mercy. His intervention likely saved their lives, but Bergoglio never shared the details until Rubin interviewed him for the 2010 biography.

Bergoglio – who ran Argentina's Jesuit order during the dictatorship – told Rubin that he regularly hid people on church property during the dictatorship, and once gave his identity papers to a man with similar features, enabling him to escape across the border. But all this was done in secret, at a time when church leaders publicly endorsed the junta and called on Catholics to restore their "love for country" despite the terror in the streets.

Rubin said failing to challenge the dictators was simply pragmatic at a time when so many people were getting killed, and attributed Bergoglio's later reluctance to share his side of the story as a reflection of his humility.

But Bregman said Bergoglio's own statements proved church officials knew from early on that the junta was torturing and killing its citizens, and yet publicly endorsed the dictators. "The dictatorship could not have operated this way without this key support," she said.

Bergoglio also was accused of turning his back on a family that lost five relatives to state terror, including a young woman who was 5-months' pregnant before she was kidnapped and killed in 1977. The De la Cuadra family appealed to the leader of the Jesuits in Rome, who urged Bergoglio to help them; Bergoglio then assigned a monsignor to the case. Months passed before the monsignor came back with a written note from a colonel: It revealed that the woman had given birth in captivity to a girl who was given to a family "too important" for the adoption to be reversed.

Despite this written evidence in a case he was personally involved with, Bergoglio testified in 2010 that he didn't know about any stolen babies until well after the dictatorship was over.

"Bergoglio has a very cowardly attitude when it comes to something so terrible as the theft of babies. He says he didn't know anything about it until 1985," said the baby's aunt, Estela de la Cuadra, whose mother Alicia co-founded the Grandmothers of the Plaza de Mayo in 1977 in hopes of identifying these babies. "He doesn't face this reality and it doesn't bother him. The question is how to save his name, save himself. But he can't keep these allegations from reaching the public. The people know how he is."

Initially trained as a chemist, Bergoglio taught literature, psychology, philosophy and theology before taking over as Buenos Aires archbishop in 1998. He became cardinal in 2001, when the economy was collapsing, and won respect for blaming unrestrained capitalism for impoverishing millions of Argentines.

Later, there was little love lost between Bergoglio and Fernandez. Their relations became so frigid that the president stopped attending his annual "Te Deum" address, when church leaders traditionally tell political leaders what's wrong with society.

During the dictatorship era, other church leaders only feebly mentioned a need to respect human rights. When Bergoglio spoke to the powerful, he was much more forceful. In his 2012 address, he said Argentina was being harmed by demagoguery, totalitarianism, corruption and efforts to secure unlimited power. The message resonated in a country whose president was ruling by decree, where political scandals rarely were punished and where top ministers openly lobbied for Fernandez to rule indefinitely.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/13..._n_2869332.html


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#121

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 00:47
von Maga-neu | 21.156 Beiträge | 46065 Punkte

Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #118
Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #115
[quote=Maga-neu|p159401]
Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?

Maga ist nicht verantwortlich für jegliche Handlungen seines jetzt obersten Hirten. Ihn jetzt zur Stellungnahme und Buße zu verpflichten finde ich übertrieben.

Wenn jeder die direkte Verantwortlichkeit für die von ihm/ihr vertretene Idee übernehmen sollte......

Es gibt jede Menge bösartiger Gerüchte. Über meinen Vater wurde bspw. erzählt, er sei Mitglied der Mafia. Warum? Weil er einen italienischen Namen hatte, ein schönes Haus besaß und einen Mercedes fuhr. Und mit bösartigen Gerüchten kann man auch viel Geld verdienen, wie Mr. Yallop, der "Im Namen Gottes" schrieb, sehr wohl weiß.

Ich nehme an, dass über jeden papabile - und das war Bergoglio vor acht Jahren mehr als in diesem Konklave :-) - Dossiers existieren. Wenn daran etwas gewesen wäre, hätte man ihn nicht gewählt. Das Risiko wäre zu hoch gewesen.


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#122

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 01:11
von Landegaard | 16.204 Beiträge | 23896 Punkte

Cool. Nun ist Jonathan Price Papst, oder zumindest ein Doppelgänger.



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#123

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 01:17
von Hans Bergman | 15.584 Beiträge | 28938 Punkte

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #116
Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #115
Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #114
...War zu erwarten: The Guardian eben, die Hauspostille von Richard Dawkins.

Kennst du die Geschichte des "proper gander"?

Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?
Wenn es um das Thema Religion und "RKK" geht, ist der Guardian so ausgewogen und fair wie Fox News in puncto Obama.


Ich fragte aber nicht nach Fairness, sondern danach, ob da etwas dran ist.
Inzwischen hat Willie ja auch schon gesagt, dass es der Guardian nur zitiert hat, eine Unfairniss also gar keine Rolle spielt.
Andereseits kann ich mir ohnehin gut vorstellen, wie die RKK auch in Argentinien zu den Machthabern stand. Wenn man das relativ gute Verhältnis zu den Nazis bei uns so Revue passieren lässt...


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#124

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 01:19
von Lea S. | 14.199 Beiträge | 13418 Punkte

Zitat von Maga-neu im Beitrag #121
Zitat von Nante im Beitrag #118
Zitat von Hans Bergman im Beitrag #115
[quote=Maga-neu|p159401]
Was heißt das? Stimmt es deshalb nicht? Ist nichts dran, weil es vom Guardian ist?

Maga ist nicht verantwortlich für jegliche Handlungen seines jetzt obersten Hirten. Ihn jetzt zur Stellungnahme und Buße zu verpflichten finde ich übertrieben.

Wenn jeder die direkte Verantwortlichkeit für die von ihm/ihr vertretene Idee übernehmen sollte......

Es gibt jede Menge bösartiger Gerüchte. Über meinen Vater wurde bspw. erzählt, er sei Mitglied der Mafia. Warum? Weil er einen italienischen Namen hatte, ein schönes Haus besaß und einen Mercedes fuhr. Und mit bösartigen Gerüchten kann man auch viel Geld verdienen, wie Mr. Yallop, der "Im Namen Gottes" schrieb, sehr wohl weiß.

Ich nehme an, dass über jeden papabile - und das war Bergoglio vor acht Jahren mehr als in diesem Konklave :-) - Dossiers existieren. Wenn daran etwas gewesen wäre, hätte man ihn nicht gewählt. Das Risiko wäre zu hoch gewesen.



Ist er der Mann, als der er scheint, wird er selbst dazu Stellung nehmen.

Vielleicht beginnt sogar eine neue Zeit in welcher politische Verwicklungen der Kirche - auch Deutschland hat schliesslich genug Erfahrung darin (beide Deutschlands) - thematisiert und z. Teil aufgearbeitet werden können,



zuletzt bearbeitet 14.03.2013 01:20 | nach oben springen

#125

RE: Der nächste Papst

in Allgemeines 14.03.2013 08:37
von Gelöschtes Mitglied
avatar

Zitat von Lea S. im Beitrag #100
Argentinien bekam den Zuschlag!


Das nenne ich eine Wahl, Donnerwetter.
Keiner der Favoriten ist es geworden (Maga hatte diesbezüglich recht), sondern ein St. Franziskus, ein Anwalt der Armen, ein bescheidener, volksnaher, marienfrommer Mann (er bat als erstes die Jungfrau Maria um Schutz für sein neues Bistum Rom!).

Ich hatte auf Odilo Scherer aus Sao Paulo getippt, also nicht so weit daneben aber eben doch.... Auf jeden Fall ist es keiner aus der iatlienischen Diplomatenriege, der erste Nicht-Europäer, noch dazu aus einem spanischsprachigen Land, was der sehr dynamischen Gruppe der Hispanics in der Katholischen Kirche Rechnung trägt.

Wir werden uns für dieses Pontifikat auf weitere Überraschungen einstellen können, denke ich.....
http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/artic...raenderung.html



zuletzt bearbeitet 14.03.2013 08:47 | nach oben springen

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